'No secret Zanu-PF talks,' says US envoy

US Ambassador, Bruce Wharton, was recently a guest on SW Radio Africa's Hot Seat programme with Violet Gonda. Wharton denied reports of behind the scenes talks with top Zanu PF officials about a new unity government after elections expected this year and insist US sanctions against the country could be reviewed if the country makes more progress in implementing reforms.

Violet GONDA: My guest on the programme Hot Seat is US Ambassador to Zimbabwe, Bruce Wharton. Welcome on the programme Ambassador.

Bruce WHARTON: Thanks, it's a real pleasure to be with you today.

GONDA: Thank you very much. Now you arrived in Zimbabwe late last year, so first of all can you tell us what your impression of the country has been so far?

WHARTON: I think my overriding impression is one of positive trends. You know I was here before; left the country in mid-2003 and at that point everything was sort of headed in the wrong direction. Returning to Zimbabwe nearly ten years later, although I still see a number of pretty significant challenges, I have a sense that there's been a lot of progress and the trends now are mostly positive and, so, I'm optimistic – not blindly optimistic but determined, determinedly optimistic and eager to support the people of Zimbabwe as they figure out how they want to manage this society, this country.

GONDA: You recently issued a statement where you criticized Zanu PF and the police for the selective application of the law and you also said civil society organisations should not act outside the law. What motivated you to say this?

WHARTON: Well we have seen what I believe is a pattern of harassment of civil society organizations in Zimbabwe; raids, police showing up and usually with a warrant, doing it the right way but on grounds that don't seem to hold up. Once the case gets to court there's nothing there. Recently there was a civil society organisation that was accused of not being registered as a PVO. In fact they were registered as a trust; they were perfectly legal but suffered a police raid on grounds that were sort of nonsensical. So frankly it appears to me that there is a concerted effort to keep civil society organisations off-balance and unable to fulfil their mandates and that's a matter for concern. I don't think that is a way to build a strong vibrant democracy.    

GONDA: And what about on the civil society groups, because you did also mention that they should not act outside of the law? What made you say that?

WHARTON: Well I think there are a couple of civil society groups, perhaps more than just a couple, who believe that some of the laws of this nation are unjust or incorrect and so they will on occasion, deliberately ignore the law and in my view, that's a mistake. I think that if a civil society group or a citizen believes that a law is a mistaken law or an unjust law, they should seek to change it or change the conditions under which it is enforced rather than deliberately violating the law and provoking a confrontation with police. And that's my own personal opinion and clearly it's a complex situation but that's the way I see it.

GONDA: I actually spoke with the co-Home Affairs Minister Theresa Makone about the general security issue in the country and she seemed to think that the 2013 elections are going to be bloodier than the 2008 elections. What can you say about this and, based on what you have seen so far in the country, do you agree with this assessment?

WHARTON: I have a lot of respect for co-Minister Makone and so I do not want to contradict her. It is of course my hope, my strong desire and the focus of a lot of my work to make sure that the elections in 2013 are not violent and that they are credible and clearly reflect the will of the people of Zimbabwe. Of course it's out of my power, it's not my job here to do the sorts of things that President Mugabe and the Minister of Home affairs need to do but I'm going to do everything that I can to try to make sure that peace-loving Zimbabweans are supported and that the elections are not violent.

GONDA: Does the US still regard Zimbabwe as an outpost of tyranny?

WHARTON: I don't believe we….. I'm not sure where that term came from. We believe that Zimbabwe is a country that has enormous potential, that has made significant progress in the last few years through the government of national unity; through the sorts of political compromises that enable the country to have a draft new constitution and are determined to be good partners to people in Zimbabwe who want to build a stronger, more prosperous, more just and healthier society.

GONDA: I believe the term came from the Bush administration and understand it was also said by former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice who described Zimbabwe as one of the countries America included as an outpost of tyranny.

WHARTON: You know what – what I'm interested in doing really is looking forward at ways that the United States and Zimbabwe can work together to build stronger relationships and have stronger institutions. 2013 is a different year than 2006 and my intent here is to look at ways that we can move forward rather than reflect on conditions of the past.

GONDA: And you mentioned that all you want to see is credible elections. What will you define as a credible election outcome?

WHARTON: That's a very tough question, it's an excellent question and I think it's one that the people of Zimbabwe and the international community are going to have to grapple with, but, broadly, what that means is that the people of Zimbabwe first, and secondly the region and the international community, agree that the results of an election reflect the will of the people of Zimbabwe.

GONDA: Is the United States government going to help fund the elections?

WHARTON: Well there's been no formal request for that at this point. I think you probably know that the government of Zimbabwe has asked the UN for election support; the UN has said first we need a needs assessment team – that's being negotiated right now. If a needs assessment team can come to Zimbabwe, then I think that would open a path forward for international support for elections, but we're not even there yet so I'm reluctant to speculate about where that may all lead.

GONDA: It had been said that the UN, through the UNDP, did not have money but that the UNDP's local representative in Zimbabwe was trying to source the money from the donor community including countries from the European Union and the United States of America.

WHARTON: Yeah, I think broadly that is correct. My understanding is that the UN cannot, will not move forward in seeking donor support unless they first fully understand the need here in Zimbabwe and that is going to require a UN needs assessment team which of course requires an invitation and permission from the government of Zimbabwe. If the needs assessment team is able to come and do their work – that'll take a couple of weeks, then they have to do a report and if in fact they agree that the UN can be useful then the UN will turn around and ask my government and the EU and other donor nations to provide funding. But that's too far down the road for me to speculate about whether or not that is going to happen.
GONDA: If it was to happen, would the US put any conditions for funding the elections?

WHARTON: I think the United States believes that the credibility of these elections and the legitimacy of the government that is chosen through these elections is so important that we would be very, very interested and would strongly urge having neutral independent observation efforts from outside. I think for example of the Carter Centre – it's an international NGO, not affiliated with the US government, in fact on occasion, they have disagreed with the US government on the legitimacy of elections. Sudan for example comes to mind but having somebody like the Carter Centre in Zimbabwe to watch the elections here, would lend huge credibility to the results.

GONDA: So what do you make of statements by Vice President Joice Mujuru saying that the Zimbabwean government will not allow international observers from hostile countries?

WHARTON: Well that's certainly her view; I certainly do not regard my government as a hostile government.

GONDA: But we all know that the Zimbabwean government has viewed America and Britain and other countries in the West as hostile. If they continue saying that, will the US still fund Zimbabwe, even if observers from your country are not allowed?

WHARTON: Ah, there are too many ifs and conditions in that question! Let me just say Violet that what we want to do right here and right now is to engage meaningfully and productively with people in Zimbabwe including at the top levels of Zanu PF and all the other political parties and, within the last week really, within the last ten days, we've had some very significant meetings with people at the top levels of government and in all of the political parties and I think it's that sort of engagement, that sort of conversation that helps us understand one another, that will overcome the distrust and the suspicion that has existed between us for the last decade or so. And I think that overcoming those misunderstandings and the distrust will allow us to move forward in productive ways.

GONDA: Some observers have said that the US is covertly engaging Zanu PF because it is seeking to create an environment where there's an extension of the Global Political Agreement or an extension of the coalition government. Is that the policy of the US?

WHARTON: The policy of the US is that it's the will of the people of Zimbabwe that matters the most and in any credible, non-violent election, we will work with the government that is chosen through those means but it's none of our business frankly, how, who is chosen to lead Zimbabwe or whether the people of Zimbabwe want a continuation of the current Government of National Unity or something different. Our interest is in the process and the more transparent and credible and legitimate the process, the easier it will be for us to normalise our relationship and work with whoever is elected.

GONDA: Western countries, especially United States and Britain are being viewed with suspicion as working with both sides to try to influence the outcome of the elections.

WHARTON: No we are not trying to influence the outcome of the elections. Look, it's the work of diplomats and of governments to understand what's going on in a country and that means engaging with people from all across the spectrum but that certainly doesn't mean that we are trying to influence elections. Again, honestly, our interest here is the process, a credible process that reflects the will of the people. That's what is really important.

GONDA: Does the US have any knowledge of leading American personalities who are said to be lobbying for Zanu PF or advocating the US administration on behalf of Zanu PF to soften US policy on the party?

WHARTON: No I have no information about that.

GONDA: Okay. What is the status of sanctions imposed on Zimbabwe?

WHARTON: Well, there's two broad sets of targeted measures, or targeted sanctions that affect Zimbabwe. One is the Zimbabwe Democracy and Economic Recovery Act often called ZIDERA which basically instructs American representatives to the international financial institutions to oppose new loan facilities or debt-forgiveness for Zimbabwe until such time as the country returns to the rule of law, respects human rights and has credible elections. So that is a congressional, that's actually a law, something that our Congress will have to examine and consider about whether or not it's time to eliminate that or alter that or continue that.

The other big set are these targeted individual restrictions on 121 people and 71 entities, mostly farms and companies owned by the 121 people which, the bottom line of those is that that executive order, those executive orders, make it illegal for Americans to do business with those people or those entities and it restricts the ability of those people to travel to the United States. It doesn't make it impossible but it restricts their ability. So those are the two big sets of sanctions policies on Zimbabwe.

Back in August when she was Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton gave a speech in Cape Town. She talked about our Action for Action policy with Zimbabwe and this is essentially the same sort of argument that we've been making since about 2001, that what Zimbabwe needs to be stronger and more prosperous is clear rule of law, respect for human rights and credible elections and as Zimbabwe, in its own course of development, is moving through those processes as I think it is this year, we will respond in kind, we will look at revising our lists of persons and entities and we will clearly make Congress aware of the changes that are going on here so that they can take a look at ZIDERA.

GONDA: So do you know when this is going to be passed by the Congress or when it is going to be reviewed in Congress?

WHARTON: No I don't have any insight into the Congressional schedule or consideration of ZIDERA. I did have a couple of really important conversations with senior members of the US Congress when I was in Washington and I know there's concern about it and interest in it so it's a live issue but I couldn't predict about when ZIDERA would be reviewed. The individual sanctions, the targeted sanctions, is something that the executive branch of government can deal with and we are prepared to make adjustments to those in response to positive developments in Zimbabwe's movement back towards to full democracy and the rule of law.

GONDA: In tangible terms what would be the implications of suspending ZIDERA on the economy and also the general political discourse?

WHARTON: Well, the first thing to understand is that Zimbabwe lost access to new loans and debt-forgiveness from the IMF which is the organisation most affected by ZIDERA. In 1999, about a year and a half before ZIDERA was passed, Zimbabwe decided at that point that it would no longer pay, make payments on its debt, and so the IMF suspended Zimbabwe at that point. The IMF has been working with the government of Zimbabwe in the last six months or so to try to start something called a Staff Monitored Programme which is sort of the first step in getting back into a productive relationship with the IMF and I think in fact there was a team in Zimbabwe just this week to take a look at how that process is going. So the first thing Zimbabwe needs to do I think is renew its relationship with the IMF and once that happens, then ZIDERA actually begins to have an effect and I think our Congress would be more interested in taking a look at revising it.

GONDA: If the land issue is reversed, will ZIDERA be reversed?

WHARTON: Well I think first of all, the United States has long recognised the importance of land reform in Zimbabwe; we saw it in 1980, we saw it in 2000, we see it today. We've got no problem with the concept of land reform, our problem is simply that it needs to be done in a way that it is transparent and legal and in which people are treated equitably by the law. At this point I think that the issue of land is something that is up to the people of Zimbabwe to decide; I think there are some remaining issues to be determined but the United States at this point is not interested in becoming involved in that issue.

GONDA: But several analysts of ZIDERA say that the land issue played a big part, it's one of the reasons why the US imposed the sanctions on Zimbabwe and they actually suggest that ZIDERA was a response to the land reform programme and that you only broadened your concerns about the issue of democracy principles after the land had been taken over.

WHARTON: No I think that is a misrepresentation of ZIDERA. I would encourage people to go back and actually read the Bill. I think it's instructive. One thing about ZIDERA that I love is that it's actually couched in the affirmative, it instructs US representatives to the international financial institutions, the IFIs, to support loans and debt-forgiveness for Zimbabwe when Zimbabwe returns to full respect for the rule of law, respect for human rights and holds democratic elections. So it's actually an affirmative piece of legislation rather than a punitive one and it does talk about those three issues: rule of law, human rights and democratic process, democratic elections. So I think anyone whoever says that ZIDERA was only about land reform is misunderstanding the intent of the Bill.

GONDA: It is interesting that even some in the MDC, in denying that they called for sanctions, have said that the issue of ZIDERA was in response to the violations of private property rights and that the US only then brought this issue of upholding of democracy principles after the land invasions started.

WHARTON: Well again I would encourage people to go back and read the Bill. It's pretty clear about the things that we believe are important to building a strong vibrant and prosperous democracy in Zimbabwe.

GONDA: A final word Ambassador Wharton.

WHARTON: Simply that I am truly pleased to be back in this beautiful country. You know the people of Zimbabwe are an extraordinarily talented, hard-working, decent people. I've been impressed both at the vision of the future that I've heard from Zimbabweans across the political spectrum and the willingness of Zimbabweans to engage with me and with visitors from Washington.

As I said earlier today, I think that the trends are very good in Zimbabwe right now. I'm not a blind optimist, I see the challenges, I am worried about constraints on civil society, I am worried about the possibility of political violence, I do worry that some parties have access to the broadcast media and others don't, but again I think that the trends are much more positive today than they were when I last lived here in 2003 and feel privileged to be able to play perhaps a very small role, but I hope a positive role, in supporting the people of Zimbabwe as they move forward in their own process of political determination.

GONDA: Ambassador Bruce Wharton thank you very much for taking part and participating in the programme Hot Seat and we hope to invite you back on the programme, perhaps after the elections for a post mortem.

WHARTON: I'd be delighted Violet, anytime.