'MDC-T thinkers have gone on leave,' says Madhuku

The leader of the NCA, Professor Lovemore Madhuku is not mincing his words anymore. Professor Madhuku boldly declares that the MDC-T no longer has the interests of the people at heart and that the leaders in the party are more interested in entrenching their own positions. In this intriguing interview with Munyaradzi Huni, Prof Madhuku goes on to reveal that the draft constitution that his NCA campaigned against in 2000 is far much better than the Copac draft.

Read on . . .

MH: Many people out there know who Professor Madhuku is and there is really no need to introduce you but people were surprised recently to hear you saying you would want to form a political party after the forthcoming harmonised elections. Can you explain why you are thinking of forming another political party?

Prof Madhuku: I think first I must say that the announcement that we are going to form a party was premature. What we have said is we will seriously consider forming a political party after the harmonised elections.

The fact that we are saying, after the harmonised elections means we will take into account what happens at the election and also infact the continuation of the referendum process. We were very disappointed by the referendum results. We feel that the two main political parties who were pushing for a Yes vote had taken people for granted because they had not allowed people to form an opinion on the constitution.

They translated their own opinion to be the opinions of the people. So we ended up with so many Yes voters without knowing what exactly they were saying Yes to. Which means between the two political formations, there is not a political party we can confidently say as NCA has the capacity to represent what we believe in.

MH: The NCA has been known to be very close to the MDC and now you are contemplating forming another party after the elections. Why not just join the MDC?

Prof Madhuku: Well, I think we must emphasise that elections come into being and they also get out of being. So it's true that we have had a very strong relationship with the MDC. Even to say a strong relationship is an understatement. We were part of those that formed the MDC and that some people in the MDC were people that were part of the founders of the NCA. That relationship was very strong but relations are built on belief systems, they are built on an understanding that you share the same values and perspectives. In the past four years it has come to our realisation that we do not share the same opinions and views on the very matters allows us to exist as an organisation.

MH: When you formed the MDC, you formed it with who and what did you want to achieve with this political party?

Prof Madhuku: Contrary to the assertion that the MDC was formed by the West, the MDC was actually formed by ordinary Zimbabweans that really wanted a complete change from the culture that we didn't accept from Zanu-PF. So we were forming an organisation that would represent a number of positions that are separate from what Zanu-PF believed in. One example would be where you take people for granted in elections and it is the opinion of the leaders which seem to matter more. That's what we thought at the time that we were coming in with a new party.

MH: So what has changed in the MDC-T for you to seriously think of forming another party?

Prof Madhuku: Well, I think that most of the leaders of the MDC-T no longer look at the interest of the people. They are more interested in entrenching their own positions and also the deep values that led to the formation of the party have been abandoned. The example which is key to us is the constitution making process. You remember that in 2000 we campaigned against the draft constitution and it turns out that even that draft constitution which we rejected in 2000 is even better than the current constitution that was approved in the referendum. The 2000 draft constitution which we campaigned against turns out to be better than the Copac draft that people said Yes to. But the MDC was at the forefront of campaigning for it meaning that they have abandoned the principle that it is not political parties who should be at the forefront of championing a constitution making process.

Our main argument in 2000 was that this is a Zanu-PF document, that a constitution must never come from a political party. But now we see the MDC in 2013 campaigning for a product that is exclusively related to the three political parties that made up Copac. Thats a clear abandonment of the process. When they finalised the draft constitution at the end of January we would have thought that there would be enough time, three to four months for people to debate the constitution in their homes, in churches, beer halls and so on. This is the position that we used to take as NCA together with the MDC. I think the MDC was more prominent in saying to people vote Yes because we the MDC say it's a good document. That is wrong. Also the performance of the MDC in the inclusive government, there has been no distinct character of the MDC-T.

I think the most prominent thing you hear from the MDC is the complain that they don't have space but we know that most of the ministers from the MDC side, have not shown a distinct character. They are part of those loving the acquisition of property, I am sure most of them would want to be part of those calling for the payment of some one-off benefits at the end of the inclusive Government.

MH: Professor, considering the calibre of the people in the MDC-T, are you surprised by their behaviour?

Prof Madhuku: I am very surprised because I never expected that. The way we worked together was such I would not expect any of them to have gone the route of the gravy train, so I am surprised actually.

MH: Some people are saying Professor Madhuku is thinking of forming a political party because the NCA project has collapsed with the passing of the Copac draft. What is your comment?

Prof Madhuku: Actually, the forming of a political party would be to push the agenda of the NCA. The NCA has been in existence as an NGO for the past 14 years, pushing for a truly people driven and democratic constitution. We feel that with the Yes vote, which was in our view clearly a misleading Yes vote, because the constitution still remains in our view undemocratic. Therefore that doesn't end the project to push for a democratic constitution. But to push for that constitution in the same format might not prove to be the best way of doing it. So if we were to form a party, it would be a party with the first and foremost mission of ensuring that the country eventually has a democratic and people driven constitution.

MH: Professor, do you think they are people out there who would take you seriously if you were to form a political party? You see there is always this joke that the NCA is a one-man show.

Prof Madhuku: The only assessment we have at the moment is the referendum vote where we got close to 180 000 people voting No. I think the majority of those who voted No in the referendum knew about the NCA and many of them supported it's position. Now that number is not a small number to build a movement from. We will not form a movement on day one and go to an election on day two. We will form a movement on day one and possibly go to an election five years later. So the purpose of any movement is to go to the people and sell yourself to the people.

I don't think people form parties on day one because they think that they appeal. People form parties because they believe they want to create a platform where they market their ideas and their thought processes. We can actually form a party with only two believers in that party but our work would be to ensure that these two believers will build half a million other believers and over time build two million believers.

MH: Professor, sometime ago, you said you would never form a political party. What has changed now?

Prof Madhuku: I am not sure whether that is what I said. We have said that things change I think . . . what I am very confident about is that I still want to play a very key role in the direction of the country and many of the people I work with at the NCA are still very keen to remain involved in shaping the direction of the country. The question is how do we shape that? So currently there are debates about participating in the shaping of the direction of the country via the medium of a new political party.

MH: Let's say this political party is formed, what happens to the NCA?

Prof Madhuku: The NCA will always remain as on organisation but what would happen is that the majority of the people who think we should turn political would have to leave the NCA.

MH: You said you were part of the people who formed the MDC. Now, when you look back, what are some of the things you think you should have handled better or in a different way?

Prof Madhuku: I think there is only one thing. The only thing that I would do differently if we were to go back is to make the principles and values of the party more clear. In other words trying to define exactly the core values of the movement. What we have done wrongly with the MDC have been to leave the agenda of the party fairly open-ended to the extent that many people that then came to join the MDC could take the party in whatever direction. I think that's what might have overwhelmed Tsvangirai that the values and positions of the party are not clearly fixed. People can come and change them as they wish. An example is the economic policy framework of the MDC-T, it only got to be properly shaped in recent times but for close to about eight to nine years, the economic direction, the economic policy framework of the MDC-T was not clear.

We have so many elements that are in the MDC-T who can never push for a people's agenda. Let's take the very rich people that are in the party, I wouldn't mention names but they are people in the party who would always want to ensure that the economy of this country is not popularised. In other words, we don't get ordinary people, the poor having a share in the means of production. That I think has been facilitated by the absence of a very clear economic policy. We should have put a very clear economic policy, a very clear position on a number of points.

MH: People say the MDC-T is having all these problems because it was formed by a group of people whose main aim was to remove President Mugabe from power. How do you respond to this view?

Prof Madhuku: Well the removal of President Mugabe from power was always part of the agenda but I think we should be clear there. Those who say it was just to remove President Mugabe I think would want to narrow the thing. We just wanted Zanu-PF out of power. Actually at the time when we formed the MDC our belief system was that let's just have a new political party in office.

MH: After all these years, how would you compare Zanu-PF and the MDC-T?

Prof Madhuku: As far as I see it, the MDC-T has just been gradually unable to show any difference between it and Zanu-PF. I don't see any major difference between these parties.

MH: As one of the founders of the MDC, are you happy with the leadership that Mr Tsvangirai has provided so far?

Prof Madhuku: I think that he has tried his best but lately he has not been able to give focused leadership.

MH: Why?

Prof Madhuku: I think he has been overwhelmed by the number of people surrounding him in the party who are clearly not focussing on the original agenda. I think the number of people surrounding Tsvangirai at the moment are more interested in personal aggrandisement.

MH: Do you think Mr Tsvangirai is aware that he is surrounded by such people?

Prof Madhuku: Any person in his position should know. I am sure he might be unable to deal with it but he is aware. Or maybe he doesn't see anything wrong with it.

MH: Some people say the MDC-T is facing these numerous problems because the party lacks thinkers. Do you think this is true?

Prof Madhuku: They have so many thinkers, but I think the thinkers in the party have taken leave. They are now more obsessed with what I have just told you.  The thinkers in the MDC-T have taken leave of their duties and they are more focussed on that personal agenda at the expense of the original agenda. I think that they are too much carried away by the protest support that they have been getting. Most of the guys in the leadership there are not doing enough work to continue to get support from the ground. They take the support from the ground for granted. The MDC-T needs to reflect after elections and if they lose elections they even need to reshuffle the leadership.

MH: Still with Mr Tsvangirai as the leader?

Prof Madhuku: Well, that is up to the party to decide. This should be subject to an internal democratic process.

MH: Recently when you spoke during a discussion at Sapes, the media went on to quote that you had said Zanu-PF is going to win the forthcoming elections. How did you come to that conclusion?

Prof Madhuku: What I said at the meeting was that my analysis was that the Yes vote, the overwhelming majority of the Yes vote, were Zanu-PF votes by looking at the provinces that turned out and simply by adding the votes. The other analysis is just to go constituency by constituency. You look at the constituencies that are currently held by Zanu-PF and you add the number of the Yes votes from those constituencies against the constituencies that are held by the MDC-T, you add the number of Yes votes from those constituencies, if you do that you will get a very huge gap between Yes votes from the MDC-T constituencies compared to the Yes votes from Zanu-PF constituencies. I then went on to say if that trend were to be reflected in the elections, then it would point to Zanu-PF winning the elections. But then an analysis is not a prophecy.

MH: It was also reported that you had said Mr Tsvangirai has the tendencies of a dictator. Did you really say this?

Prof Madhuku: I was referring to the manner in which the referendum had been conducted. I was unhappy with the fact that the MDC-T had not supported the NCA call for a delay to the holding of the referendum. The NCA even went to the courts seeking an extension but what I know is that the MDC-T was unhappy with that stance. They actually celebrated at Harvest House when they heard that our actions had failed at the courts. That clearly shows dictatorial tendency. The other area why I made that statement was that during the campaign, Morgan Tsvangirai uttered words that were not acceptable to us in the NCA. When he was in Sunningdale, he described the people campaigning for the No vote as nhinhi and then when he was in Bulawayo, he actually said those people campaigning for No vote vane mamhepo. That kind of language is just a tip of the iceberg.

Now Tsvangirai is at the forefront trying to delay the elections. He event went to court. We have three months to the end of June. Now compare three months with three weeks that they gave us for the referendum? He was comfortable with that. Rather than seeking a delay to the election, he should just be looking at the conditions under which those elections must be held. He should be talking about access to the State media, especially the electronic media. This situation where he wants to push the country to go for three months without Parliament is a dictatorial mindset. What this country must be doing at the moment is to see how best we can have elections by June 29. Whatever needs to be done must be done.

This is the mindset of democrats. He is saying the MPs can go home but we remain in office. This is a very dangerous tendency. We create a precedence like that but there is no assurance that Tsvangirai will be the next president. But why create such a terrible precedence for the country when those who want us to create those precedences might not succeed?

MH: How often do you speak to Mr Tsvangirai?

Prof Madhuku: Before the inclusive Government, my interaction with him was very close and very often. After the inception of the inclusive Government, on a one on one basis I think I have met him once. In the early phase of it, sometime in May 2009. From there any other meetings I have had with him, I don't call them meetings, we were meeting in public where there is some function. I would prefer that some of the things that I have said in this interview be said on a one-on-one basis. . . it would appear that the mindset of most leaders in the MDC-T, not just Tsvangirai, even Tendai Biti is that they have arrived. What has happened is that after joining the inclusive Government most of our colleagues in the MDC-T have simply behaved more like people that have arrived. So they don't need to talk to those that are still on their way. . . I am sure we will be close again, when the trappings of office are gone.

MH: We have spoken about Mr Tsvangirai for quite some time. Now, with the way he has been working with Mr Tsvangirai, how would you describe President Mugabe?

Prof Madhuku: I don't know anything about the President. I have not had any meeting with the President, so I don't even know how to assess him.

MH: Would you like to meet and talk to the President?

Prof Madhuku: Look, it depends on the issues. If the President is meeting people, I don't want to have any special reason why I should meet the President but if there is an opportunity where the President is meeting people, like anyone else in the country, there would be nothing wrong meeting the President.

MH: Professor, don't you feel left out by your colleagues in the MDC who are now living a lavish lifestyle?

Prof Madhuku: I feel very lucky that I am not part of the guys in the inclusive Government. I am sure about that. I don't feel left out. I feel very lucky. This country clearly deserves a different kind of leadership. I will be turning 47 years in July so I think that if I am lucky I still have some time.